Episode 31 - Oregon Adoption Day

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreignians and welcome to Life and Legislation with Lucetta. If you've ever wanted to get to know your politicians personally or understand what it is they are actually doing, then you're in the right place. I'm your podcast host, Jessica Campbell. [00:00:17] Speaker B: I'm your state representative for House District 24, Lucetta Elmer. [00:00:21] Speaker A: This podcast is a place for you to get to know Representative Elmer both personally and professionally. [00:00:27] Speaker B: We want Oregonians to feel connected with and educated about their state politics. So we're so glad you've joined us on a fresh new podcast adventure as we cover all things about life and legislation. [00:00:41] Speaker A: Hi, Oregonians, and welcome back to Life and Legislation with Lucetta. We hope you've been having a wonderful summer, and we're so excited that you've joined us for this particular episode. This time, we have not only Representative Elmer with us, but we have two special guests, Kendra and Vanessa. I'll get them introduced here in just a moment, but we want to tell you right away that something very special is coming up on August 25th. Some of you might remember that last year a very important law was signed designating August 25th as Oregon Adoption Day. And our topic for this episode is adoption. Before we get to introduce our guests and have them explain their connection to adoption, Representative ELMER I was going to have you give a quick recap of Adoption Day, what it is and why it matters. [00:01:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you. So Oregon Adoption Day is simply a law that recognizes adoption, and it gives us a chance to celebrate adoption, to elevate the conversation around adoption. August 25 was chosen because that is personal to me. That's the day I was adopted. This legislation was so impactful and so powerful because it was one of those times in the legislature where political labels fell aside. And when we passed this on the House floor, you could feel it. And it's one of my favorite memories so far as a legislator. People stood up, representatives stood up from all sides of all the aisles and just started telling their story. And we passed this unanimously. And now we have a platform, not only a law in Oregon that designates a day solely for adoption to recognize it, but also a platform to continue to elevate this important topic. [00:02:26] Speaker A: Absolutely. And we'll get into this in a little bit later in the episode of kind of. Well, why does this even matter? Why would this be a topic of state government, of legislation? But before we get there, I'd like to welcome Kendra and Vanessa. Thank you so much for being here to talk about adoption and your connection to adoption. I would actually love to just Hand it right over to you to introduce yourselves, the organizations you work for and why this matters to you, how you even got into this field. So maybe Kendra, let's start with you. [00:02:59] Speaker C: Sure. [00:02:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:59] Speaker D: My name is Kendra Morris Jacobson, and I'm the director of the Oregon Post Adoption Resource center, and I also supervise another program that helps children in foster care get adopted. I've been in the field for over 30 years and started out as a mental health therapist, and that just sort of eventually flowed into foster care adoption. And it's just. Just become the champion cause of all that I do in my work life. [00:03:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:23] Speaker A: And we got to visit you not too long ago. [00:03:26] Speaker B: Amazing. [00:03:27] Speaker A: Yeah, we had. We had you all hooked up. [00:03:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:30] Speaker A: All of us. [00:03:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:32] Speaker D: That was a wonderful visit and it meant a lot to us. Very special. It was an honor to host you. [00:03:36] Speaker B: Well, thank you. Also just so great to walk into this space and you could just feel your guys's energy and passion for. For this. I mean, thank you for what you do. [00:03:46] Speaker A: I feel like I left everyone on a cliffhanger there saying that we were hooked up. So [00:03:52] Speaker D: maybe we. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Could you take 30 seconds and explain that? [00:03:55] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:03:55] Speaker D: It was so exciting when Representative Elmer and the two Jessicas, as we like to call you, came and actually sampled one of our interventions, which is neurofeedback, a lovely, safe, non invasive way to help our brains relax and regulate. And it's offered free for adoptive and guardianship, kids and families. [00:04:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:15] Speaker D: And it was a snapshot. [00:04:17] Speaker A: So amazing. Great, great summary of that. Thank you so much. We'll get to hear more about what you're doing and why it matters, but I'd like everyone to meet. Vanessa. Thank you so much for being here. And you also have a very special adoption connection. [00:04:30] Speaker C: I do. I do. My name is Vanessa Gomez Gerberg. I was adopted just. Just under the age of 8 years old. Spent some time in and out of foster care, which we could talk a little bit more about later. Later became a foster parent to my sister's children and then kind of found myself in the world of foster care after that, once they returned home. I'm now the executive director of With Love Oregon, a local nonprofit that is supporting the tangible needs of children who are coming into foster care and have often nothing. And so we're able to wrap around some tangible support, make sure that they're set up for success. I've been there for a couple years now, and kind of just in that advocacy and recruitment kind of space for more healthy, safe families for kids. [00:05:14] Speaker A: It's amazing to hear how each of you landed where you are. Right. Because your stories are different. You had very different starting points, but kind of landed in a similar field. And I think one of the, one of the things we want to be talking about is why this matters. Because it's very obvious to the outsider tuning in why it would matter to you too. You're both adoptees. Like, of course it matters to you. But for anybody who maybe doesn't have a personal adoption story, well, why, why should it matter to them? Why should it matter to the state as a whole? Why should there be. What kind of laws are needed around this that would reach all of Oregon? And so maybe we can even start there with you. Of, of course we can see why this would matter to those touched by adoption. But why, why take the time within the long session to make a day? And how would this affect, you know, all of Oregon, really? [00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah, great question. The first two years, two and a half or so in the legislature, I was on the early childhood Committee, Early Childhood and Human Resources committee, Committee, Human services. Sorry. And you know, the stories that we heard, the information that, that, that just sort of came to me through being in this environment. I just saw the great need. And I've always had such a passion for children and families, but as a lawmaker, as being part of the government, I mean, it is our responsibility to govern. And children who don't have the safe haven of a family and who's watching out for them, that's huge. It is extremely important to just continue to bring awareness to this. I know that you have several stats to share which will, I'm sure be mind blowing, but whatever we can do to make sure that not only do organizations like this have the resources they need, but those are increasing as needed with all of the children that need to be served. And that there are safety precautions put in place around the environments that they're going to be in and then as much as possible, that we can make it safe. Easy to get these kiddos connected into safe loving homes is just so important. [00:07:38] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you, you know the cliche that the, the youth is the future and if you've got a huge percentage of them that aren't being cared for properly, that's going to affect everybody really, you know, in terms of a community. And I think that's what most people would want. Just a safe, healthy, thriving community. Whether you're talking about a tiny community or a whole state. And you mentioned statistics. So Kendra, you have some statistics just to kind of, you know, Frame this again for people, especially for those who they're not connected to the adoption world. They, they know it exists. Maybe they have some stereotypes about it or some judgments about it or opinions about it, but they haven't lived it and they don't know all the details. So maybe can you shed some light on the adoption world? [00:08:23] Speaker D: I will do my best and pardon, as I want to kind of check my notes a little bit. Something that's a little tricky is there's no complete statistic and list of all the adoptive families of all the different kinds of which there are so many different kinds of adoption. The stats where we really have a little bit more solid numbers are those coming from the state, so from foster care, adoption, and statewide at any one time, you know, our organization and then parts of your organization are serving approximately 9,771 adoptive and guardianship families right now, parenting 10,338 children. And that includes a little over 200 families right here in your district. Representative ELMER Wow. And they're parenting upwards of 200 plus children as well, so quite a few, you know, right here in your district. [00:09:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's the, the piece when we look around your community, that a lot of it's unseen. [00:09:27] Speaker D: Yeah. Yes. [00:09:28] Speaker A: We don't know what's going on behind the doors. We don't know which kids are being pulled into the foster care. We don't know which families are going through adoption. And you mentioned so many different types of adoption. Right. I mean, we have closed adoptions, we have open adoptions. There's embryo adoption, there's adoption within our, you know, local community, our state or our nation. There's also international adoption, adoption from the foster care, you know, adopting an infant versus adopting a teenager. I mean, and the list goes on and on and on. [00:10:01] Speaker D: Step parent adoption. [00:10:02] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:03] Speaker D: Or even adult adoption. Not everyone knows you can actually adopt an adult. [00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:07] Speaker B: Really? [00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:08] Speaker D: Through. Through using an attorney, you can adopt someone who's over the age 18 or even 25 or 35 or 40, which is really beautiful actually, that you can create a family even that late in life. Yeah, yeah. [00:10:21] Speaker A: I'm glad you mentioned that because I think not everybody knows that. And I, I had a lady tell me her story years ago and she had just, you know, been the honorary adoptee of a family for so long. And then. Yeah, when she was a grown adult, they said, you know what? We're just going to make this legal. And I just, I could, I could cry thinking about that story. When I think of all the details Back to that. But it is. It is beautiful. There is a lot of beauty and adoption, so much. There's also a lot of challenge, a lot of hardship that that goes through this. It is not. They're not all the Disney Hallmark stories, right? What. Maybe just turning it back to both of you, what do you wish the general population understood or knew about adoption as a whole? Maybe some of the things that you see in your work. [00:11:13] Speaker C: Well, I'm going to just speak a little bit to my own lived experience. I was in and out of the foster care system before the age of six with my sister, who was 18 months younger than me. And when we were adopted, we were adopted together, but there were multiple other siblings who came later. And, you know, I didn't meet until my, you know, middle school years. So I think for me, as I grew up, I really struggled with just not feeling apart, not feeling the same, just feeling so different. And I am a transracial adoptee. And so there were just those natural things of just looking different from my. My parents and my. And some of my other siblings. You know, you're sometimes just really removed from, you know, your birth culture. And those are things that as we grow up and we kind of learn to identify and kind of become who we are, that we navigate through as we, you know, kind of feel one way inside but show up different on the outside. And so I think just an acknowledgement, a recognition that, like, you know, children are losing so much. They're gaining a lot. And also they're losing so much when they are removed, or at least that was my experience. And as I took in my niece and nephew, I do think it's important to know that so many of the families who end up moving towards adoption or guardianship end up being relatives as well. And so you go. You go from being an auntie to now the parent, you know, but you're also navigating relationship and how that looks with your sibling or your, you know, your grandparent, now welcoming your grandchildren. And you were planning on retiring and life looking really differently. And now you have to parent or you get to. I don't say have to. Like, you know, it's just. It's a part of life that you weren't anticipating. And so there's a lot of things that. When you talk about community, oh, my goodness, community. What does that look like for children? From coaches to teachers to, you know, faith, you know, faith, you know, communities and whatnot. Community is so incredibly important. [00:13:08] Speaker A: Before we started recording, we talked a little bit about how different things were maybe in the 80s. [00:13:14] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:13:14] Speaker A: Compared to today. And like many things in our culture, we can name all the wonderful ways we've come so far, pick any topic, look at how far we've come. And with most topics, there's still a long way to go. [00:13:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:29] Speaker A: So I'm going to kind of circle this way as you think about what else you'd like to see. You know, the vision for the future for adoption families, legislation and so forth. Where would you like to see Oregon Adoption Day go? Other things that. That you might see that are needed. You know, if. If you had a magic wand and you could have the state government do whatever it is that your organization's needed, what might that look like? But I'm going to start here with your vision and kind of circle to some of the things that you see as being really critical. [00:14:04] Speaker B: I think that one of the things that has been super encouraging since we've passed this law is that I will just meet people in the most unexpected place and they'll know about it. And. And there's. And if they know about it, they probably have a personal connection, and they're so excited. And I get to hear those stories, but I also get to hear maybe from their perspective, where the holes still are in our state. And so that's the piece for me, I guess, that I'm wanting to learn, and I love that we got to come up and. And visit you, because I want to know what the next step is from. From your positions on how we can ensure that these kids are just thriving. [00:14:46] Speaker C: Yeah. So, yeah, I think, you know, as I raised lots of little kids throughout my 14 years of fostering, I just recognize, like, a need to be active, whether it's in arts or sports or music or whatnot, as they're getting older, just, again, making sure they're a part of this community. I had, at times, I had six kids, and sometimes I had nine kids. And you can imagine the cost of all of that. When you want everyone to be engaged in something and doing something really positive. Fostering and adoption can be really isolating, and it opens up their community. And I think, for my dream is that, you know, our young children can be in spaces where they know that there are other children there who have that same experience, but they don't necessarily always have to know who it is, but they just know, like, there are other people here walking some similar, you know, paths. So I think once adoption happens, once that. Once that permanency happens, a lot of times the funding is reduced, resource Parents or foster parents, they have, their stipends are reduced, and the cost of raising kids only increases year over year over year, especially as you've got multiple children and sometimes later on another sibling is born. And you want to keep kids together. So just like, recognizing the cost is increasing, we want to keep kids safe and active and building their communities. And that takes more resource. [00:16:10] Speaker D: I have so many answers for this. I'm trying to narrow them down. I mean, the first one, just so quickly, is just what you're doing here with this, with Oregon Adoption Day and even with this talk, just bringing awareness to it and knowing that whoever you are, wherever you are, whether you're in the grocery store or at your place of worship or at the library, there's adoption and. Or foster care and guardianship all around you. You just don't know it. Sort of like you were saying, it's. It's invisible. And just making sure to have compassion and kindness and show support and love for all of those adoptees, the families, everyone supporting them, because the road can be really difficult. Like you said, Jessica, all adoption starts with grief and loss and trauma on. On one level or another before it moves on in, you know, into beauty or other hardships, too. You know, it's a mix. So just keeping that awareness like that, all of those families need our compassion and support and love and help. And then I did have another little statistic around this same topic. So foster adoption, competent services, where we're really supporting mental health, is a really big topic that not everyone is always aware of. And there was a study done recently by case, the center for Adoption Support and Education. And in their study, a big national study, they found that adoptive families and adopted people seek out mental health services at a rate of three times that of the general population. And the studies also found that when you can access foster adoption competence, specific services and counseling, you know, from providers who really know what you need and know about all these nuances that we're talking about, you know, that a lot of the general public doesn't know, it results in stronger therapeutic relationships, higher satisfaction with care, better child and family outcomes, and nearly three times greater engagement in the services. So that's something that I'd love for everyone to know. [00:18:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And now this is where you see a lot of the crossover. Right, right. It's not just adoption in its own little bubble. It covers community relations. It covers the wellness of children growing up. It touches into education, mental health. There's so many pieces of it. And, you know, if you had that magic wand, and you could solve every issue that comes with childhood. Can you imagine how wonderful everyone would be in their adult life and how strong our communities would be? And it just, you know, this. This wonderful. This wonderful community. So thank you for being. Taking time to think through those answers and what we can do, because kind of how. What you've all said, when you take the time to tell the story and see how the laws play out in real life, that's where you can find the holes. It's one thing to make a, you know, a broad bill, a broad law that looks great on paper, but then you watch it play out and go, oh, we might need to add this sentence here. Or wait, there's this. This group that got left out. And this is what happens when you watch the law play out and see how things changed. I even heard a story recently of a family that was adopting a child out of foster care, and they waited until after his 16th birthday to make it legal. And there were. There were reasons for that in terms of what resources he could get, I think, regarding college funding and so forth. And you just think, wow, that's so interesting that, you know, you'd have to delay something in order to get a certain resource. And just looking at all those little details, I know there was a law that affected your story that in terms of when you could actually access your birth certificate. Is that correct? [00:19:57] Speaker D: My original birth certificate? [00:19:58] Speaker B: Yeah. In 2000, that's when Oregon passed the law that adoptees could actually have the original birth certificate. It was then held up in court for 18 months or so. And so it still took a minute for us to get it. But until then, the only way that I would have been able to, I would have had to get a lawyer. And that wasn't an option for me. So I tried. But I remember walking into the hospital once I found out where I was born, and I just asked them, can I get my version again? And they said, yeah. I mean, they're downstairs and. And. But then, you know, as an adoptee, oh, wait, no, you cannot. Which I thought was so crazy. [00:20:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you think, you know, what was the. What was the purpose behind that original law? Usually there's a reason if there's a law, there's some method behind it and some reasoning behind it. But then again, you watch it play out and you can see where, oh, maybe in this case it would have been nice for that law to be different and so forth. So as we are starting to wrap up here, are there any key points of your. Either personal experiences or your work in politics or in these organizations that would be really important to highlight. [00:21:14] Speaker C: I think. You know, when we received permanency for my niece and nephew, I understood what that meant in one way. And then there, there came a time where I really needed to lean on my kind of rights as a parent and realized that I didn't have some of the abilities that I thought that I had. And I say that because there's so much information being given to you, you know, at. When you become a foster parent, when you, you know, re achieve permanency. And so I just think about like better ways to be able to like disseminate that information over time rather than like, here's a packet and boom, here's all the information and figure it out, you know, and what I love that or park is doing. Can you want to talk a little bit about like the, the kind of follow ups with families after? [00:22:00] Speaker D: Yeah, and that's really what we're trying to do is engage families earlier, communicate a lot with them. Actually, Vanessa and I, with Love and Or park are partnering around that, making sure that families know more and earlier the resources that are available to them and then trying to follow them longer term with support services, education, library materials. And also I think we've all been talking about the importance of really partnering as community, as community organizations so that we're not both reinventing the wheel, but we're also making sure all of our cross populations know about all of these things. [00:22:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I think, you know, we had a family recently who I'm actually really personally connected with, who achieved permanency, is a native Spanish speaker and you know, their grandparents that took in their twin grandchildren at, at birth and now they're two years old and they've got permanency. But they've been struggling. They're trying to navigate the system and they're trying to navigate that now that there's permanency, those resources are. Are slimmer. But I knew about or park and I knew about some new things that they had going on. And so I reached out and made sure that Kendra could connect with them. Is there so much more that I don't even know that, you know, Kendra or Parker are doing? But I want to make sure that families know and that they get there and they get that information and that they're able to get it in their native languages as well, which is so incredibly important. So just making sure that families know, like there is a place that can continue walking with you and with Love does continue supporting families who have achieved permanency up until the child turns seven. We've got a huge facility with lots of things that you need for little, so we can't really go higher than that. But it was really great to be able to connect with Kendra and know that that family would be supported. [00:23:48] Speaker B: Kendra, do you find that you're able to serve families from all over Oregon, or are there others that you refer out to? [00:23:55] Speaker D: We do. We serve the whole state. And in fact, we go a little overboard and we even serve all the families outside of the state of Oregon, nationwide, who are parenting Oregon children. I mean, sometimes, obviously there's not quite as much that or park can do for those families, but we do our best. If someone reaches out to us, we do our best to try to locate what it is they're looking for or at least to provide information about what it is and as well as resources that might just support them or help educate them in whatever it is they're pursuing or doing relating to adoption or guardianship. But along the lines of partnering with Love is actually having their Back to School event this Saturday that workhard's going to be tabling at. I don't know if you wanted to share a little bit about that. [00:24:40] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, it's kind of funny. We're doing the zero to six age, and so usually they're heading into, like, Head Start or preschool, and so they don't need some of those, you know, those supplies that some of the older kiddos need. But we're really just trying to support them with early learning essentials, you know, sensory backpacks for sure. Even the little tiny ones as they head off to kinder and lunch boxes and water bottles. They just love those things. And so we love to connect with our community partners and make sure that the families know about those other resources that are available to them as well. We do serve families throughout the entire state of Oregon and southwest Washington as well. You know, just zero to six. Wow. [00:25:17] Speaker A: Incredible. And I know that you would be thrilled, both of you, actually all three of you, to connect with anybody that wanted to ask questions, learn more, maybe get involved, whether they're looking at foster care, whether they're looking at adoption, whether they're just wanting to support in some way or understand it better. We could do a whole separate episode on how your funding works and things like that. But I do want everybody to know that we will have the links for all of these things in the episode notes and other information that can be found. And as we wrap up, I do want to Give you Rep. Elmer, a chance to talk about the Oregon Adoption Day logo contest. [00:26:01] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yes, we have that happening right now, and we're going to extend it a bit. We've been getting in submissions, but what we asked is that Oregonians that have been touched by adoption would submit their idea for an Adoption Day logo. And this would be the actual permanent logo that represents the law for Adoption Day to recognize it. So very exciting. And all the information will be in the notes. So you have until August 21st, submit your idea of the logo. [00:26:32] Speaker D: Yep. [00:26:33] Speaker A: And when will the winner be announced? [00:26:35] Speaker B: When will they. Jessica? [00:26:38] Speaker A: August 25th, adoption day. [00:26:40] Speaker B: Perfect. [00:26:40] Speaker D: Yes. [00:26:41] Speaker B: That will be fun. [00:26:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So we wanted. We just really wanted that logo to be designed by somebody that had a connection to adoption. And you. There's a lot of ways to interpret that. [00:26:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:50] Speaker A: So we don't. We don't have it in a, you know, a limited box, but if you have. If you're an Oregonian with a connection to adoption, we would love to have your submission for a logo that would be the official Oregon Adoption Day logo forevermore. [00:27:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:05] Speaker D: Which is very exciting. [00:27:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:06] Speaker A: Well, thank you for making that, for creating this day. I know that probably there are some people that think, oh, that's. That's something that, you know, the legislation would work on, but. Yes, and it does matter, and it matters to everybody, not just those who are touched by adoption. And so we're so grateful for the work that. That you're doing, that your organizations are doing. I. I could sit here for so much longer. I would love to hear both of your personal stories and all the other details that led you to where you are today. But just a huge thank you for all that you're doing. In our final two minutes, for each of the three of you, would you give any sort of a message to those who have been touched by adoption? Anything that you want to say to somebody who is struggling or feeling lost or not feeling seen or, you know, any of the things that. That are hard with this particular journey. What would you want to say to those? [00:28:01] Speaker B: Well, hopefully we've highlighted some resources that maybe people didn't know existed, because community always helps when you're struggling with something and to know that there are others out there, you're not alone. Your struggles probably resonate with other people, which I always find comforting. So. So I think that's my hope, that people would take advantage of the amazing resources that are. That are available and. And check it out. [00:28:28] Speaker C: Yeah. I think I would just say that there are so many similarities to, you know, how we walk through life and carry all that we navigate, and also it, we all interpret it so differently. But that, that's okay. It's okay to feel the feels. It's okay to, to. To just feel and also just, I just want to affirm in every single adoptee like, you are enough. You are absolutely enough. And I love connecting with other adoptees. I love to hear their stories. If they ever, you know, wanted to sit and connect, I would just be honored to, you know, to sit with them and to share stories of resilience, you know, because we are resilient people. [00:29:07] Speaker D: So. Yeah, and I'm so glad you said. You both said what you said, because I really wanted to mention that it's the voices of adoptees who we really need to listen to and hear. And the fact that, Representative Elmer, you've created this day, and you are that voice, and Vanessa, you are also that voice, and you've created this platform here because you're who we can learn the most from and we can learn how to, to better support the families who are raising the children. And your voices haven't been heard for quite some time for all. Some of the reasons you were talking about before. So it's, I'm just so excited and honored that I get to sit here with you. [00:29:49] Speaker A: Well, thank you, Kendra. Thank you, Vanessa. Thank you, Rep. Elmer, for all that you are doing in your different, you know, parts of the state of Oregon and, and all parts matter. And it, it's amazing to see the connections and, and watch you together and, and hopefully, Oregonians, you're seeing a little bit more of state leaders coming into the communities and being connected and that they're not just sitting in a building disconnected from, you know, their constituents, from their people that they are. That they are real people with real stories who care about the communities that they're serving. So we're so glad that you've been joining us for this podcast to hopefully get to know Representative Elmer a little bit better, to learn more about what's going on in the state of Oregon and our local community communities. Hopefully you learned a whole lot more about adoption and Oregon Adoption Day. Please share this with anyone you know who has any kind of adoption story. We would love to just continue to honor and celebrate adoption of all kinds and to spread that awareness, elevate the conversation, let people know all about Oregon Adoption Day, and we hope that you join us next time. For our next episode, we will have some more special guests coming on a different topic, although sometimes these topics and actually connect. Our next topic is going to be talking about fertility benefits, infertility, how that even matters again at a state level, and looking at some of the things that our leaders have been trying to do related to insurance and support and and so forth. And thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Life and Legislation with Lucetta. [00:31:27] Speaker C: It.